Tabberone help request: pugster888 (62815) 07/15/04 07:47 PM We got a note from the Red Cross telling us that an item was infringing on their trademark. Our product has a red christian cross on a gold background on a nurses hat. We have no problem on taking our items off (unless we are booted for too many vero's). At any rate, have you run across this type of thing? Any understanding of the red cross trademark? (which is actually not a trademark but rather a judicial enforcement maybe?) Would love some advice from you on this, as we did not feel we were infringing. We recieved a message from another seller asking us what we thought of it, since thier product was also removed for vero on the same counts. Here is what the other seller sent me regarding the note: "We are trying to end all auctions on Ebay that infringe the Red Cross emblem. Our emblem should not be considered a generic symbol for the nursing industry, ambulances, or first-aid. Sales of items that enforce this belief are detrimental to the real meaning of the Red Cross emblem which is meant to signify neutral medical care and disaster relief in times of disaster or war. Any thought on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Suzanne Pugster gomarek (268) 07/15/04 09:09 PM (#2 of 13) Hi Suzanne; Just sent you a rather detailed email with several references, a PFD file, some graphics and other information on your situation. Hard to win this one... because it's the Red Cross. Regards Marek laughingravy21 (2658) 07/15/04 09:50 PM (#3 of 13) This subject has made the Powerseller board a few times in the last couple of months. If I recall correctly, not only is the red cross trademarked, but it also enjoys additional legal protection under Federal law.... at least that's what I think. Karen may know more about it. Leo pugster888 (62815) 07/15/04 10:15 PM (#4 of 13) Got that email. But look at the details. We are not showing a red greek cross on a white background, but a christian red cross on a gold background. There are fine lines in copyright and trademark and this is one of them. The real issue is does the red cross own the plus sign in any color? and in any context? I doubt it. By the way, as I understand it, Johnson and Johnson and a few others actually also have trademark with the logo because they were pre-1920 (or some such date). My issue with this is that I don't think the red cross can own every plus sign of every color on every background. But they certainly can vero it to death, and cause sellers to become bullied into believing that they do. Thanks Suzanne Pugster misslynette (1793) 07/16/04 04:50 AM (#5 of 13) Suzanne ~ if you email Karen directly, she's amazingly helpful. She did a drop by "delivered damaged item" exam for me in the Denver area, dealt with my hostile customer and sent me photos of the damaged cabinet. She's an angel. tabberone (2918) 07/16/04 01:52 PM (#6 of 13) Your contributions are hard at work with the Red Cross. I can understand if someone is advertising something that actually infringes but I've heard of them shutting down an auction for a doll wearing a hat w/a red cross. Was it an Italian Charm w/the cross? I would think it's winnable if someone wants to take them on. If it's the one I'm thinking of it's not a cross but a Cross. Do they want to take on the church? pugster888 (62815) 07/16/04 02:10 PM (#7 of 13) Thanks for answering. It is an italian charm with a nurse's hat (gold) that has a red cross on a it. Their note states: Infringements of the Red Cross emblem are not limited to red crosses on a white background. Imitations of the emblem, which are also considered infringements, can include slanted or thinned red crosses on white or other color backgrounds; crosses shaded or adulterated by other colors, lines (including outlines in another color), words, or figures; and "plus signs." ... Additionally, you are using your red cross as a generic symbol for nursing by placing it on a nurse's hat. Therefore, it is clear that you are using your cross to refer to the Red Cross emblem and not to refer to a religious Latin cross. What do you think? Thanks Suzanne laughingravy21 (2658) 07/16/04 03:54 PM (#8 of 13) What do you think? If they're going to waste time and money worrying about little gold charms on ebay, I think it's time for me to find a new charity to support. Leo tabberone (2918) 07/17/04 07:07 AM (#9 of 13) Well first off you didn't do a think, you bought something. Tell the Red Cross that their mark is not being diluted by the cross appearing on a charm. That if they are serious they should go after the manufacturer. But when their donations start to dry up because of the bad publicity maybe they'll rethink their position. pugster888 (62815) 07/17/04 09:25 AM (#10 of 13) Thanks for your input. We did support this charity, ironically, we gave them numerous charms for one of their chapters. I have attempted to reason this out with them, but still they do have VERO POWER and that is next to godliness. We are recieving mail from another seller who wants us to stand up on this one, but at this point, it's not worth the fight over a few charms. Suzanne juliedc (18958) 07/17/04 10:27 AM (#11 of 13) I sell some Italian charms too, and got Vero'd also by the Red Cross. And then the auction accidentally launched again, because the item was still in inventory and I forgot to tell my employee not to relist it. And it got Vero'd again. Someone is really on a mission with these charms. It is just not cost effective for me to fight this at all really, unfortunately, even though I think we'd have a case. I've only got 2 of the charms left in stock and just won't order any more. I don't make enough off of them, these charms are just the tiniest portion of our profit. I agree though, if the Red Cross is serious, it should be taken up with the manufacturer. I have to say, I admire you tabberone for your follow through on these cases that are just plain unfair. It is impressive that you follow through on your principles, and makes me wonder if I'm not adding to the problem by turning my head and accepting defeat on things like this. It boils down to time and money for me, but I wonder if at least there isn't some way we, PeSA, couldn't help eBay to improve the Vero dept. computerstuffstore (12712) 07/17/04 10:28 AM (#12 of 13) I agree but based on what I read that you posted from their definition then ... You have a gorilla with a hat on with a cross, does that count? Mini Mouse also has a nurse hat with a red cross on it, does that count? This is not yours but there is a nurses charm bracelet with prayers on it with the red cross, those also? Just wondering how far it could go? Jim computerstuffstore (12712) 07/17/04 10:31 AM (#13 of 13) Oops, a post slipped in on me, I was directing to Suzanne. Also the lazer charms with a nurse hat with a cross. That by definition would count also since they said color does not matter? Jim Source: http://groups.ebay.com/thread.jspa?forumID=6358&threadID=100403747&start=0&tstart=0